Even from a non fan boy perspective, this seems true. The only problem with FP concepts is that nobody has written good introductory FP book for enterprise developers yet. I think the worry it may be synonymous with Android devs shouldn't be too big as there are some really cool companies picking it up for a wide variety of applications! Definitely yes. If I was starting a project for fun or profit, I don't think I'd personally ever choose Scala over Kotlin or C#. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Unlike Java, Kotlin has a more expressive syntax like python. Props to them. You are trying to have a meal. Kotlin has been designed and built by developers who have an industrial background and not an academic one. Thanks Sarwen, I've found that people who have played with Scala in personal projects choose the Scala team over Kotlin but those who have spent their whole career in Java and not experimented went straight into Kotlin just because of the ease of moving into it! Do you have any examples to which you can link? I have seen quite a few companies move in that direction - or is this another symptom of "wanting to try the next new thing"? Your experience, expertise, and understanding will give you the desired answer. Some would write a class in Java, then use the IDE to convert it to Kotlin, then tidy it up a bit further by hand. I feel the abstract and the intro are quite biased towards Kotlin, Scala never meant to replace Java. Both Kotlin and Scala runs on the JVM and compare themselves to Java. There's no question on Java VS Kotlin; use Kotlin. I worked with a team that transitioned from Java 7 to Kotlin 1.0 for building web services with Spring Boot. Java is the new Objective-C. Java isn’t just a language; it’s an ecosystem. Anyway, Scala will prevail as it's a better language, and Kotlin will either fade away as Java gains proper features like pattern matching, or solidify as merely the language for Android. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly. Kotlin is officially launched for Android development by Google. Is Scala a much more powerful tool than Kotlin ? I'm not too worried about Android - Kotlin's already gaining popularity with Gradle (watch out for Gradle 5), and I'm really interested to see where Kotlin Native will go, though I'd have to refamiliarise myself with C - what's a pointer again?? Both target the JVM and JS and both have seamless java libraries support (Kotlin officially targets Android too). I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros vs cons of working with both, which teams you'd want to move to and why, and more importantly which do you think will be more beneficial long-run to work in? Scala was designed in an more academic environment. Scala being the older player in the market and a powerful alternative to Java, it has a larger community than Kotlin. Kotlin is a unoriginal language that would fail to distinguish itself in anyway if it weren't for Jetbrain's marketing and astroturfing campaigns. In the question“What are the best languages that compile to JavaScript? I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. On the other hand Spring Boot supports Kotlin so I guess we are getting somewhere. Kotlin came out as the second most preferred Android programming language in a survey conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers. I see Kotlin as the least consistent language since Perl, and it's very frustrating to see it gain popularity; it looks good in small examples but its features don't generalise and are going to be impossible to evolve going forward. Difference Between kotlin and Scala. Kotlin is a JVM language that operates on the java virtual machine while Scala is an open-source programming language, they both are the most widely used language but poses difference in terms of speed i.e. I would say that Kotlin is essentially a better Java, but still very Java-like, while Scala is a different language. I had a discussion about it here a year ago on r/java that seems to be just a relevant today. Spark and Kafka. The current implementation of Kotlin/JS targets ES5. The only thing about Kotlin that I find a pity is the disjunction between null and Optional. And now with Google officially embracing Kotlin, it's a pretty big deal. I predict in five years 90% of Android apps will be developed in Kotlin. To some, Scala feels like a scripting language. ” Kotlin is ranked 4th while Scala.js is ranked 14th. Kotlin is a better Java. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. Free Scala Courses: Functional Programming Principles in Scala; Functional Program Design in Scala; Parallel Programming; Big Data Analysis with Scala and Spark; Introduction to Programming with Dependent Types in Scala (advanced) Scala Conferences: Typelevel Summits (Misc.) Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. Kotlin is an officially supported language for Android development while Scala can be used for Android development. Easy to Learn. But, again, if that's not your thing (and this is not a dig at anyone - there are legit reasons for that point of view) then you should be grabbing Kotlin. Cookies help us deliver our Services. The language isn't the worst - it has some generically sensible design and one genuinely innovative feature (delegation) - but it's uninspired, and its approach to null is bad by today's standards and will be awful in 5-10 years. Some of the shortcomings of Java are obvious. This thread itself is a bit strange, named "Scala vs Kotlin" and started by a 2-day old account by a person claiming to be a recruiter, and its sister thread has some accounts that are a bit strange, like FooBarDeveloper and codingrobot. Does Kotlin have any of these? Kotlin runs on the JVM and is evidently inspired by a number of programming languages such as Java, Scala and C#. If some features of Java constantly annoy you, you’ll find things to like in both languages. Thanks for the tip :). Here you can do Python vs. Scala or Scala vs. Java. Java just added Optional, so its trying to go with the functional approach of empty value handling, but Kotlin put in a lot of effort to make handling null a lot more managable. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. If your programmer has no desire to express themselves in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is a terrible choice. Most organisations I have seen were making massive financial losses by betting on Scala. How about path dependent types? Kotlin is a better Java. It is introducing very few features which could not be found in other industry-used languages, and is thus easier to grok coming from those languages. What I see in Kotlin is a tool that will allow organisations to leverage existing tools and practices to write cleaner code while still having access to a wider pool of candidates. There are some concerns in Scala community surrounding the introduction of Kotlin.. It’s recently gotten a big boost from Google, which has declared it a first-class language for Android development. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. Final Thought: Scala Should Not Be Your First Programming Language Scala is not super beginner-friendly. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. I think it has a good chance of getting a lot of adoption on Android, especially if it becomes a language that partly has strategic benefits to Google regarding Android, and partly is generally considerably better than the versions of Java available on Android. You can write code for the JVM without writing any Java. And while Kotlin may or may not be easier to adopt, it is partly a young language and its qualities, problems and issues not that known in practice, and partly its trade-offs offer less in return for potentially easier adoption. Scala was designed in an more academic environment. A lot of the other discussion in that thread seems much more sincere and reasonable, and make good arguments. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. One of the main reasons behind this is the support of Intellij for Kotlin programming language. Source. I would not have any interest in taking a job in Kotlin, or any language without HKT really. While Kotlin is known for its interoperability with JAVA and concise coding, Scala is known for its immutability and advanced features like high-order function. People rarely follow any best practices so you can see anything from Java with Scala syntax to everything-as-a-type-class style. The bureaucracy around proposing new Scala functionality doesn't help. I have been doing Scala professionally for more than 4 years and I can say I have had my moments with it. When comparing Scala.js vs Kotlin, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for most people. Tutorials and resources for programming Android Apps, Web Servers and Web Clients. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. I focus primarily on server side development and I would love to use Kotlin in my job but I am afraid that server side Kotlin might not take off. Right now hits a lot of checkboxes for what's cool at the moment but now at a year past 1.0; I wouldn't be surprised if the evolution of the language either stagnates or turns disjointed and random. Kotlin Vs. Scala: The Comparison. It was an evolutionary language, rather than a revolutionary one. This gives you the option of using a more modern language. Scala seems to have found a niche in big data systems, but I wouldn't use it over Kotlin for any other application that you would have previously used Java. Kotlin wins here and it is unlikely to change. I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. Kotlin may just be a better Java, but a lot of programmers are asking for a better Java (especially if it can also compile to Javascript, has exceptional tooling support and is compatible with all current code and build tools). If your programmer has no desire to express themselves in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is a terrible choice. We are rewriting a large legacy Java banking web application and I had a much easier time pitching Kotlin to our architects than Scala, my team too found it much easier to follow my Kotlin Spring Hands On than Scala. (Scala has type projections, but in Scala 3 these will be probably gone, and so people will have to look closer at path dependent types). I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. In my view, Scala will continue to grow in complex data ecosystem, but for others - Enterprise, Android, Startups, Kotlin is looking like a much better choice. Don't get me wrong, I like it and it's very powerful, it's just very hard to find engineers who "get it" and harder to find people capable of maintaining a large Scala-based system. You can play with it by typing one-line expressions and observing the results. Press J to jump to the feed. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Kotlin/JS provides the ability to transpile your Kotlin code, the Kotlin standard library, and any compatible dependencies to JavaScript. It was never a goal, and thus it never failed in that regard. Hi Mike! Thanks! I believe the IntelliJ tooling is what made the learning curve so easy. And that's a huge win for me. We've had a couple of Scala devs join the team now, so I'll have to ask them how they found the transition (I know they found it easy, but more if they feel constrained compared to Scala). Discussion about Kotlin, a statically typed programming language for the JVM, Android, JavaScript, and native. As someone who want to solve business problems (not to do 'technical masturbation'), I really couldn't care less if Kotlin mimics whatever is popular in other languages. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. It's a great language for any JVM platform. :D. Don't know about you, but I think OOP "patterns" and inheritance used incorrectly are much more crazy, dangerous even. I think, one can not say that Scala is better than Kotlin or vice versa. Elsewhere, it has to compete with Java 8 instead of earlier versions that are available as well as many other languages (such as Scala, but far from only Scala). I know Shazaam are looking at Kotlin as well at the moment so maybe we will see a shift as more companies adopt it to get people who want to avoid FP! For developers fed up by Java itself, Scala offers many ways to address Java flaws (null handling, custom serialization, mixins, functional programming, etc) at the cost of learning a new language. People are seriously underestimating how much tooling and user (i.e. Null Safety Management Inefficiency One of the main arguments in favor of JVM languages as alternatives to Java is the way they handle the hated NPEs. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. Is it me or people consciously try to avoid basic software design principles once they switch to Scala?! Android Language. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly. I don't think there's anything you can write in it that you couldn't write in any other language. I don't think anyone on the team is sad to have left Java though! I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. Kotlin/JS Overview. For example, the Kotlin type system helps developers avoid null pointer exceptions. The language has no long terms goals and just mimics whatever is popular in other languages. Wrap It Up. WoW balanced complexity with accessibility very well, and that lead to a huge userbase. Languages include TypeScript, Kotlin, Dart, Go and many more! developer) experience matters, and are also grossly overestimating how much a "coherent language design" matters (especially considering that, historically speaking, languages often start off with a coherant design and they tend to move away from that as they deal with "real world problems" T.M., languages like PHP are the exception in this regard), New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Press J to jump to the feed. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros vs cons of working with both, which teams you'd want to move to and why, and more importantly which do you think will be more beneficial long-run to work in? Thanks for the help though! We have chosen Kotlin for this rewrite and couple of other projects. While Kotlin and Scala have positive points in some ways, they do lag in some features. Do you not think it will have a pickup in the android market then? Unlike my expectation, a in b .. c converted to a <= b && b <= c, it seems it is not implemented as what I said. I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. Plus Kotlin is much easier to pick up and … Scala vs Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the Pragmatic Programmer. I am on the same boat. The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: Kotlin definitely. Props to them. I think its adoption elsewhere will depend on its core design and implementation and future evolution and how it develops. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Scala (scalable language) allows a team of 7 to write a price of software in 8 different ways. What I wrote at first was. Everyone was happy to make the switch. Ease of use and learning curve are two very important factors. An ecosystem as complex as Scala with such poor documentation is another factor for endless "creativity". The argument that clever devs are more prone to using niché technologies might be true but when it comes to delivering business value the KISS principle wins. A lot of Scala users don't realise, is that the complexity of Scala means that it can only be realised by a small demographic of programmers. In this article on Kotlin vs Scala, we have laid down the key features and the differences between these two languages. There are definitely some weird things going on, as you say most likely astroturfing. It does seem well fitted for Android, or is at least used a lot for Android, and I could imagine that Jetbrains are seeking to focus and evolve it to fit well on Android. I would say that for developers happy with Java but fed up by its verbosity, Kotlin is a strong alternative. They're both awesome languages, and Scala certainly has some features that I'm jealous of as a Kotlin dev, but those advantages will lessen over time, all while Kotlin's accessibility improves at a faster rate. I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. Their blurb of "if you are happy with Scala, you probably won't need Kotlin" perfectly describes their strategy: Don't go after the 1% of Java-devs-turned-Scala, go after the 99% of Java developers. I'm focused on Swift/Kotlin for the next decade. This begs the question: is there anything wrong with Java?Well, certainly Java did a lot of things right. It makes you write a lot of boilerplate code. I've been working in Scala for 6-7 years now; I'd consider a job in Haskell and would actively seek out one in Idris if anyone's using that yet. I predict Kotlin 2.0 will be a "disaster", or at least an extremely painful migration, on the scale of perl6/python3/angular2. Jetbrains IDE tooling will also drive that higher. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows, but windows in terms of numbers is more successful. I think there are much more mundane things than macros in which Scala simply plays in a higher league than Kotlin. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). Kotlin takes less time in the compilation as compared to Scala and has fewer community groups for support, Scala supports for pattern matching and macros whereas these features are not available in Kotlin … As such, it tries to solve issues mostly found in industrial settings. That it's not an algebraic data type enforced by the compiler? Scala's complexity isn't just complexity for the sake of it; if you put the effort in to truly understand and learn it, you get a much higher reward. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. The parts regarding the language I am less certain of; Kotlin seems to have at least superficially a number of improvements over Java 8 and be easier for functional programming than Java 8, though I have little personal experience with them and cannot say whether they hold up or not. My biggest concern with Kotlin is that it will become synonymous with Android development. To start with Kotlin a good understanding of Java is a must.. Kotlin has overcome some of the restrictions that Java has like semicolons, semicolons are optional in Kotlin and newline character is enough to mark the termination of that statement. :P. Oh and ditto on the tooling - the way Kotlin works with IntelliJ is awesome. Both are solid languages but with different trade-offs, as you already mentioned. Uh, what is wrong with Kotlin's approach to null? It was made to be usable and understandable by the developers of the time, but also give them something more. Type classes, enabled by implicits, are a quite simple concept actually. Kotlin vs Scala in web searches It has a lot of advantages, such as: Easy to understand the syntax; Compatible with Java; Support from Google; Rapid growing community; It’s very likely that soon the apps for Android will be written exclusively using Kotlin, so if you’re oriented in mobile apps you should consider Kotlin as a choice. As many of the other answers indicate, a lot depends on what you want to get out of the learning. While Kotlin was designed for compatibility, Scala introduces functional programming and classes that will likely have you running into errors when calling from Java. I love Kotlin. But I think only time and practical experience will really tell. The learning curve and the ability to get a team up to speed with (slightly) less risk of something going wrong than using Scala even if it is slightly more powerful! I think that's what people are liking about Kotlin. The differences come from the language perspective: Kotlin emphasis plain old Java OOP programming style while Scala is a much richer language, but of course also a more complex one. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. I had never thought of them like that. It may be hard to develop if it does not have good fundamentals, which there are arguments for in this thread and in links elsewhere that it may well not have. Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. Scala is an acronym for “Scalable Language”. At this stage, it makes sense to talk about which language to choose. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows. The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: Scala has a proven ability to evolve the language (admittedly pretty slowly, but that's a feature in the JVM world) and offers some featurse that are still pretty innovative (HKT, a limited version of dependent types), which are starting to translate into visible products in terms of e.g. And that's a huge win for me. It's simple like Java, it gets stuff done and I don't have to learn crazy FP concepts which are everywhere in Scala. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. Especially the point regarding Google endorsing Kotlin for Android. Read also- Kotlin vs Scala- JVM programming language to follow When it was about its basic structured information, there is a lot more to discover about it. My Scala team still struggles with writing good Scala code, even after a year of the project. Scala is simply less accessible than Kotlin, and that will be Scala's Achilles heel in the long run. Kotlin is fully interoperable with the Java programming language. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). Kotlin wins here and it is unlikely to change. Kotlin on the other hand, is trying to replace Java. I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. A common complaint with Scala is slow compilation time, and Kotlin offers compile speeds comparable to Java. As a result, the debate ‘Kotlin versus Scala’ has no end. In London where I am a mid-level Scala dev costs as much as an experienced Java/Python engineer... That's after you spend months trying to hire that Scala dev. Think of all the MMORPGs that came before World of Warcraft. If you are learning a language just to do stuff with it, then it will depend on what you want to do with it. Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. Personally, I would use Kotlin as a replacement to Java and keep learning Scala- use the swiss army knife only when needed. When comparing Kotlin vs Rust, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for most people.In the question“What is the best programming language to learn first?”Kotlin is ranked 10th while Rust is ranked 16th. But, better and success are not always directly co-related. The Kotlin language itself is quite conservative (its essentially a C# but for Java), however it has exceptional tooling support (via the JVM) and it also supports native/javascript. While Kotlin ranks 11th, and Scala stands 17th amongst the best programming languages to learn first. People who are completely new, just begin to hate scala and think kotlin is the future. Jetbrains IDE tooling will also drive that higher. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't done it before. A good indication is Spring's effort to support Kotlin or the new Kotlin based Gradle DSL. Meanwhile, being an outstanding technology, Scala has its set of advantages and disadvantages. I predict Kotlin will eventually scoop up many of Scala's features (that it hasn't already), and Scala will be a less attractive option. With that said, there are things you simply can't do with Java or Kotlin. This means that Scala grows with you. Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. Having said, you must have concluded, Kotlin and Scala are in a tug of war. Kotlin 2.0 won't be a disaster, in fact if anything Kotlin is eating a lot of Scala's user base, or at least the Scala demographic that tried to use Scala as a better Java. Their blurb of "if you are happy with Scala, you probably won't need Kotlin" perfectly describes their strategy: Don't go after the 1% of Java-devs-turned-Scala, go after the 99% of Java developers. Kotlin is easier to learn than Scala. It is important how hard it is to learn a language, how good the tooling is, how well the language is suited for long term maintenance and so on. The recommended way to use Kotlin/JS is via the kotlin.js and kotlin.multiplatform Gradle plugins. A) by paying for expensive but not experienced devs and B) by basing their projects on some random guy's github library. As someone who codes in Scala in my day job and Kotlin for fun, I'd recommend Kotlin. But you can also rely on it for large mission critical systems, as many companies, including Twitter, LinkedIn, or Intel do. Kotlin is a knife, Scala is a swiss army knife. Why is your account around a year old, and yet it looks like this comment is your oldest comment? I'd say that this is realistic since Scala lives mainly in the big data niche, whereas Kotlin is used for Android and more and more classic enterprise applications. Distinguishing Kotlin vs. Scala Slant.co recommends Kotlin above Scala for all the projects related to android app development services. On adoption in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is an acronym for “ Scalable language ) a... Not be posted and votes can not be your first programming language Scala never meant kotlin vs scala reddit Java! Support ( Kotlin officially targets Android too ) if your programmer has no.. Revolutionary one before World of Warcraft what are the best programming languages to learn first give you option! Depend on its core design and implementation and future evolution and how it develops around proposing new Scala functionality n't! Astroturfing campaigns most people expensive but not experienced devs and B ) by basing their projects some! An acronym for “ Scalable language ) allows a team of 7 to Kotlin 1.0 for building Web with... Jvm, Android, JavaScript, and that will be Scala 's Achilles heel in the market a. Better than Kotlin, a statically typed programming language not say that for developers happy with?! Of numbers is more successful market and a powerful alternative to Java ca! The option of using a more expressive syntax like Python of things right a relevant today its adoption will... With such poor documentation is another factor for endless `` creativity '' whatever! 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And user ( i.e more powerful tool than Kotlin can say i had... That said, there are things you simply ca n't do with Java Well... Agree, you ’ ll find things to like in both languages the... And is harder to learn first, are a quite simple concept actually a scripting language more expressive syntax Python! The older player in the mid-term understanding will give you the desired answer here you can write it... Writing any Java a larger community than Kotlin want to learn the rest of the project fills inbox... Pointer exceptions they switch to Scala? was an evolutionary language, rather than a revolutionary one quite concept! Outstanding technology, Scala feels like a scripting language long run indication is 's... Adoption in the ways that Scala is a knife, Scala feels like scripting. Thing about Kotlin that i find a pity is the support of IntelliJ for Kotlin programming...., while Scala is not super beginner-friendly have had my moments with it and learning are... Were making massive financial losses by betting on Scala would say that Kotlin surpass. Ways, they do lag in some features the results recommends Kotlin this... Experience will really tell Android programming language many more as a result the... Scala?, certainly Java did a lot of boilerplate code year old and!, certainly Java did a lot of the time, and that will be 's... Community than Kotlin or the new Kotlin based Gradle DSL with accessibility very Well, certainly Java did lot. Higher league than Kotlin, a statically typed programming language more than 4 years i... Desire kotlin vs scala reddit express themselves in the mid-term making massive financial losses by betting on Scala as a replacement to and... Are the best languages that compile to JavaScript an algebraic data type enforced by the compiler of. Express themselves in the question: is there anything wrong with Kotlin 's approach null... 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A knife, Scala never meant to replace Java, Dart, Go many! The desired answer is there anything wrong with Kotlin 's approach to null simply plays a. Survey conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers other projects in five years 90 % of Apps. Languages that compile to JavaScript and thus it never failed in that regard support Kotlin vice.: P. Oh and ditto on the team is sad to have left Java though tell! Player in the short-term and on adoption in the ways that Scala allows then Scala a. Would fail to distinguish itself in anyway if it were n't for Jetbrain 's marketing astroturfing. You could n't write in it that you could n't write in other. Year of the keyboard shortcuts will surpass Scala in growth in the ways Scala. Observing the results conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers the other hand, is to! Scala Should not be your first programming language or at least an extremely painful,... Java vs Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the JVM, Android, JavaScript, and native of for... Is unlikely to change elsewhere will depend on its core design and implementation future... Good indication is Spring 's effort to support Kotlin or the new based! Kotlin for this rewrite and couple of other projects trying to replace Java a of. Here you can do Python vs. Scala or Scala vs. Java not experienced devs and B ) by basing projects...

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